Serious Concerns About Ovi Store and DRM FL

[mgroeber9110]

And there I was thinking that this would be a thread arguing about DRM ... Personally I would be very worried if DRM was being forced on all Ovi apps as standard. At the least it should be optional (and not be forced onto phone owners who choose not to use those DRMed apps). DRM just creates hassle for individuals - serious pirates will find a way round it, and it only takes one person to crack it and upload it as a torrent.

This thread is not so much about forcing DRM on applications, but rather the fact that the design of the Ovi Store today effectively prevents developers from choosing to implement any kind of DRM. The reason is that there is no way at all for an application to tell whether it was installed legitimately or not - an Ovi SIS file is simply supposed to install and run as a full version, no questions asked. As a result, it is sufficient to grab the original SIS from Ovi (which can be intercepted fairly easily) and distribute that without any cracking of either the file or the handset being required.

The main discussion here seems to be about various ways of how Ovi can provide some kind of assurance to an application SIS file that its installation happens out of the Ovi store, rather than from a side-loaded copy. This situation appears to be similar to Android before the addition of Google's "licensing server" API, where a paid app could also not check whether it was installed after a paid download or from a copy of the package file.

ciao marcus

[lenclud]

Still no news on that? "Licensing Server" sounds like a good idea. I suppose there is no OVI support for updates either is there? The N8 has that 'SW update' application can OVI publisher use it somehow?

[petrib]

Nokia has not published/announced any such licensing server or comparable functionality for Ovi Store yet.

[xlazom00]

Still no news on that? "Licensing Server" sounds like a good idea. I suppose there is no OVI support for updates either is there? The N8 has that 'SW update' application can OVI publisher use it somehow?

No, you can't use 'sw update' for you own app

[ivanlitovski]

Enough is enough. My losses have hit seven digits. Anybody know a good, brave law firm in Finland?

[petrib]

Enough is enough. My losses have hit seven digits. Anybody know a good, brave law firm in Finland?

Who do you plan on taking to court? What contract/agreement, that you have made, has been broken and by which party, or which parties?

Just as a warning, before you start spending money on litigation: Be sure that you understand perfectly well all the contracts and their terms that you have agreed to, what they really say/promise, and in particular what they don't promise, in case you want to sue someone for a broken promise that they really never have promised, even if you believe they have.

In the context of Ovi Store, review the Ovi Publish terms and conditions in particular, as that is your contract with Nokia in this respect.

I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advise. For proper legal advise, retain a lawyer.

[juannoguera]

You should check first with lawyers in your own country, since the liability may start there.

I can't understand why, after so long, Nokia has done nothing to address these concerns. I understand that you cannot avoid piracy completely, but no doing anything at all does not seem like the best way forward.

[petrib]

I can't understand why, after so long, Nokia has done nothing to address these concerns. I understand that you cannot avoid piracy completely, but no doing anything at all does not seem like the best way forward.

Me neither, especially given that Nokia already had long before Ovi Store an existing and working digital content activation/licensing mechanism in place (up and running and in production, with content protection, separate delivery of licenses and reactivation, publisher reporting, etc.) for N-Gage and preloaded/preinstalled Java games for Series 40 phones, integrated with a payment system, including in-game billing/purchasing and subscription model support. Of course, it wasn't perfect as no such system is, but the infrastructure for it did exist and seemed to be sufficient for game publishers, and could have served as the technology for Ovi Store, too.

;-)

[cycnus]

any new news regarding this?

[Darwood]

Who do you plan on taking to court? What contract/agreement, that you have made, has been broken and by which party, or which parties?

<snip>
I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advise. For proper legal advise, retain a lawyer.

I'm not alawyer either but I know under UK law breach of contract is only one of a range of things you can sue for. If I burned down your building or lied about you for example then you could probably sue me even though I haven't broken any contract.

[Darwood]

any new news regarding this?

Personally I have dropped Nokia as a develoment platform and moved to Android for the following reasons. The lack of robust copy protection for my apps was also a factor.
Confusing mix of development environments: C++, Java, Python, WRT, Qt etc etc
Nokia's reluctance or inability to remedy known faults with their operating system.
Poor eco system. There are so few apps on Ovi (which is poorly branded for a start) with those apps that are available generally being commercial ones. There are some very basic apps that should be free and not need purchasing such as messaging, office, file managers, zip utilities which make Nokia a non starter for many.
Poor phone reliability - both my wife and I had no end of freezeups, restarts etc with our Nokia 5800XMs
Poor touch screen. I don't know if this is just the 5800 or a more general problem.
No end of problems with Ovi Music store. Esp downloading.
Difficulty in signing up as a publisher and publishing apps. When I tried you had to be a company (rather than freelance/independent) and I seem to remember it was quite expensive to register.
So it's Android for me and fair well to Nokia.

[cycnus]

Personally I have dropped Nokia as a develoment platform and moved to Android for the following reasons. The lack of robust copy protection for my apps was also a factor.
Confusing mix of development environments: C++, Java, Python, WRT, Qt etc etc
Nokia's reluctance or inability to remedy known faults with their operating system.
Poor eco system. There are so few apps on Ovi (which is poorly branded for a start) with those apps that are available generally being commercial ones. There are some very basic apps that should be free and not need purchasing such as messaging, office, file managers, zip utilities which make Nokia a non starter for many.
Poor phone reliability - both my wife and I had no end of freezeups, restarts etc with our Nokia 5800XMs
Poor touch screen. I don't know if this is just the 5800 or a more general problem.
No end of problems with Ovi Music store. Esp downloading.
Difficulty in signing up as a publisher and publishing apps. When I tried you had to be a company (rather than freelance/independent) and I seem to remember it was quite expensive to register.
So it's Android for me and fair well to Nokia.

Wasn't android/java is more plaintext (easily crack) than QT/symbian/nokia?
and 5800 is already 4-5 year??? maybe you should try new nokia 701 if you want to compare to new android phone?

[Darwood]

Wasn't android/java is more plaintext (easily crack) than QT/symbian/nokia?

Dunno but I am giving my app away for free and going to try and make revenue on ads.

and 5800 is already 4-5 year??? maybe you should try new nokia 701 if you want to compare to new android phone?

I moved from my 5800 to Android back in May having had it aroudn 2 years. I think it was still fairly new to market when I got it and while it seemed good to start with, it became apparent it wasn't a solid platform. I had always been a Nokia fanboy before that and thought I would try and transfer some of my desktop development skills and experience into mobile app development. However I found the phone incredibly unreliable, sluggish and lackign in functionality despire numerous updates. Not to mention the Nokia ecosystem very confusing and disappointing. If you ask me Nokia got complacent and Google used their might and battered them. The htc desire was such a landmark phone that it just blew everything else around out of the water at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if Android overtakes iPhone sales soon if it hasn't already leaving Nokia/Windows Mobile and Blackberry to fight over the crumbs. If you still believe in Nokia as a development platform then good luck to you but I have had enough thanks.

[cycnus]

Dunno but I am giving my app away for free and going to try and make revenue on ads.

but if the apps easily crackable, the ads would be then easily removed....
and if you got money from ads, what's the different in making one for symbian?

[wizard_hu_]

Cycnus: I do not think that anyone would really spend much time on removing ads from fully functional, free applications.

Darwood: the complete S60 5th edition product line was a big mistake in my opinion (*), but reporting that you do not like your 5800, in September, 2011, is a bit anachronistic. Switching to a brand new Android device, and finding it better than a 3-year old Nokia model is not a really great achievement. Let us return to your findings with your phone in 2013.
Multiple choices for development being bad? This kind of complaint is really new to me. Also, Android started with Java, then C/C++ support was added with the NDK, and currently a large number of enthusiasts are working on porting the open-source Qt to Android. By the way, I also develop for Android.
For DRM and copy protection and security: the Android Market is exactly the place where these things do not exist. Re-distributing pirated+plagiarized software with malware extensions in the same marketplace is something that we rarely hear about in the case of AppStore or Ovi Store.

These things are completely off-topic in this thread, so do not be surprised if it gets pruned back to around #100.

(*) NDC-s are 3rd party individuals recognized by Nokia for this reason or another, but they are not representing Nokia.