[Moved] Symbian APIs

[jas76]

Hi,

This is in continutation to some of my discussion on "I hate symbian" thread (http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...d.php?t=144221). Instead of hijacking actual problem discussion (raised by mehdy13) on that thread I thought it is better to start new one to respond to Antony and ltomuta.

@Antony
I looked at blog you pointed out by David Wood and saw your comments too. Your Ms example for binary compatibility is spot on, I must say. However I would like to add one more point on MS. MS is the most vulnerable OS from security point of view, however ruling the Dektop market for years (and I wish they continue). Where is the key? The key strength is in their open APIs. Windows in not open source but provide capabilities/APIs to do nearly every damm thing. Although some misuse it, but hey so what it is still ruling.
Why open API/access helped them? Answer is, it attracted a big developer community to develop so many application that a user can not live without. For example on my daily activity I use several software that are only available on Windows and can't switch to other OS because I won't find them on other OS.
Instead of learning a lesson Symbian/Nokia decided to go against it open API in V9.x (by introducing so much restrictions) and facing facing compeitition from others.
Its the best platform in theory (as it has strong arch for development), but worst in practical (because you can utilise its strength).

@ltomuta

A bit of clarification:
- I do not believe that uplink playback was ever an advertised/recommended/supported feature of S60

Its up to you that you believe it or not; however you can find wiki articles on this forum itself (http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.ph...yer_in_Symbian) that gives example how it could be done, even in S60 3rd ed MR, then why it is broken in S60 3rd ed FP1&FP2?
Is it because this was a bug in 3rd ed MR? if yes then why buggy wiki articles are present in the forum and suggest developers a way?
BTW where could I find the details for difference in what is commited/supported and what is not?

[Nokia Ron]

Moved to a more appropriate discussion group.

Ron

[ltomuta]

@ltomuta

Its up to you that you believe it or not; however you can find wiki articles on this forum itself (http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.ph...yer_in_Symbian) that gives example how it could be done, even in S60 3rd ed MR, then why it is broken in S60 3rd ed FP1&FP2?
Is it because this was a bug in 3rd ed MR? if yes then why buggy wiki articles are present in the forum and suggest developers a way?
BTW where could I find the details for difference in what is commited/supported and what is not?

Well, until some time ago the wiki also had an article about generic Viagra but that does not mean that Nokia, S60, Forum Nokia or Symbian is endorsing such a product. You have to make distinction between user generated content and official Forum Nokia publications.

Everybody "knew" that using the priority 80 would get you access to the uplink playback feature. After a while, the value might have showed up in some Forum Nokia technical solutions or examples, we cannot ignore obvious solutions. However, you will not find that value (or that use case) explicitly documented in the SDK.

It does not mean that the value does not work. It means however that tomorrow that value could be 81 and that the day after tomorrow it could not work at all, regardless of the value used.

Is it a bug? Only if you show me that it contradicts the SDK documentation or an official statement that says "all S60 devices starting with release X will have support for the feature Y".

[antonypr]

Instead of learning a lesson Symbian/Nokia decided to go against it open API in V9.x (by introducing so much restrictions) and facing compeitition from others.
Its the best platform in theory (as it has strong arch for development), but worst in practical (because you can utilise its strength).

From my understanding, there is also pressure from network operators to have this kind of restrictions. Yes, unfortunately network operators still have too much power in many countries.

[jas76]

@ltomuta

Well, until some time ago the wiki also had an article about generic Viagra but that does not mean that Nokia, S60, Forum Nokia or Symbian is endorsing such a product. You have to make distinction between user generated content and official Forum Nokia publications.

Sorry, I didn't know about that. I assumed that although wiki articles are usere generated but monitered by Nokia similar to discussion thread. If viagra articles are on Nokia Forum wiki, definetly its not a matter of pride.

However I would like to say that its the user generated content because of which so many applications are there. SDK documentation is crap. I am not a symbian expert, but whatever I have learned, 80% is contributed by forum, only 20% or less from documentation. A Big Thank to all members who contributed on the forum.

There are APIs that seems to be promising but documentation does not give details (e.g. TMdaTelephonyAudioDevice) I am trying to mute/unmute active CS call audio in downlink for past few months but couldn't succeed so far. When documentation does not clarify where will the developer go? Ofcourse he will try to search on forum to look for a solution.

Also I would like to know if the articles like (http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.ph..._be_controlled)is also user generated or from Nokia support?
If from Nokia support, your statement

- I do not believe that uplink playback was ever an advertised/recommended/supported feature of S60

is not true; I agree that it says solution will not work on 3rd ed, but then your APS documentation says that you can uplink audio so obviously who wrote application from 2nd ed will not abondon their projects and business plan and move to APS, even if it is designed for VOIP because you are taking away an API and not providing equivalent API to move application to next SDK. If binary compatibility can not be provided at least you can provide new API to achieve the same functionality and we are ready to rewrite the application.

Anyways my major concern at the moment is to mute/unmute uplink&downlink audio so that I can play music without human voice in CS call. But I just wanted to highlight that articles pointed on above link gives an impression that problem is acknowledged by Nokia and Solution is provided.

@Antony

From my understanding, there is also pressure from network operators to have this kind of restrictions. Yes, unfortunately network operators still have too much power in many countries.

I completely agree with you. I very well understand the point of David Wood also for managing so many devices. However if there is a will there is a way. Operator that wants restriction can customize the contract phone and may restrict the application. For example vodafone UK has customized some Nokia phone where only ring tunes downloaded from vodafone store can be played (comments applicable to 2nd ed devices). However if you see strength and sales figure of Nokia Devices their major sales comes from India and China (several millions) where there is no contract phone concept (except for iPhone 3G introduced recently in India) and consumer buy the phone from shops and is free to use any application. So where Nokia devices sales are depndes upon operator (e.g. UK/US) they can respect their concern and can restrict API on those devices but make it available on other devices. I am not saying that this is the best way. Only point is that if you try to solve the problem it may or may not be solved but if not tried it won't be solved.

[Nokia Ron]

KnowledgeBase articles are verified by Forum Nokia. The second link was uploaded by Tote b5 not by a Nokian. You can look at the history of the Wiki articles and pretty much see who is who if you are a regular reader.

Wiki has a volunteer administration board that sometimes catches new articles and sometimes does not.
This discussion is not monitored I can not stress this enough. If it was monitored then every message would be read before it became public, that is unacceptable. While many volunteer experts do participate they do so because they wish to make this a better product and are developers. They are usually doing this on their own time.
I try to scan every message but I am just looking for spam and obscenity or illegal activity, I am not a support person.

But gettting back to your point. You are thinking PC and not Mobile Device. Backwards compatibility is NOT a factor in the development of mobile software. You need to understand this is necessary in order to provide the finest features in a limited system.

where could I find the details for difference in what is commited/supported and what is not?

http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/matrix_all_1.html

Ron

[jas76]

Hi Ron,

Thanks. I appreiate the details your have provided.

However I do not buy your argument

Backwards compatibility is NOT a factor in the development of mobile software.

That's the biggest mistake and need a change in attitude. This is the only strength in other platform that you do not need to rewrite software for every new device released and they are taking benefit of that. Symbian has so many strengths that other platform are nowhere near to that but due to this attitude of not keeping backwards compatibility is damaging all that strength.

When developers invest their time, money and effort they expect their software to run on as many devices as possible.

Please note that I am not saying that $100 device should have same feature and API has $1000 device; however I expect $1000 device to have all feature that $100 device has and that comes when you try to maintain compatibility.

Your advance SDK (3rd ed) does not provide same functionality as your 2nd ed SDK and that's where the pain is. I have no problem if the APIs are there and I need to go through symbian signed for that; however I expect at least that APIs are there.

I don't care about open source, all I care about API to achieve what I want to achieve and I am ready to pay for that (a reasonable amount though)

[Nokia Ron]

Hi Jas,

This is a good discussion I probably should move it again to the tools and SDK feedback but also in the documentation feedback. But I hate do keep moving it around.

Just so you know Nokia does try to what you want. It is also moving towards open sourcing Symbian in agreement with other device manufactures.

Keep up the good feedback. Lets keep in in the feedback forums so it is easier to get the attention of people that can help will see it. Especially on documenation they do watch that feedback forum.

Ron