Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

[wizard_hu_]

Those free and useful applications could be put into the Ovi Store by their enthusiast developers. It offers the same level of signing what was available via Open Signed Online in the past.
For the donate part, developers should keep their pages, because support remains on their site, and because of the chaos in the store itself. Just instead of offering an unsigned .sis file on their page and a lengthy description of the signing process, they could simply link the download page in Ovi Store.
You will have a hard time explaining that users really find (found) it easier to sign applications for themselves (typing IMEI, captcha stuff, confirmation e-mail, download e-mail), than installing the same application with a single click.

[Porcius]

to wizard_hu_
Basically you are right. Ovi Store is good way for end-user to obtain some app. Nokia beta labs as well.

I just think there should be the choice for advanced users to "install with a single klick" or to sign by themselves.
It's like I usually buy food in ubiquitous supermarkets, but also like to go to the farmer to buy some home cheese or black pudding without any "certificate of quality". And without intermediary.
I think not all of apps would pass the filter of Ovi Store certification(or would get enough capabilities, like aforesaid NetworkSwitcher or EQFastlang). And users begin to depend on Ovi Store policy. Unfortunatelly enlargement and absence of choice leads to degradation sometimes.

Maybe there should be the opportunity to issue the personal certificate (for one IMEI with maximum 17 capabilities) for end-user from SymbianSigned site. With mentioning that Nokia and Symbian does not accept any claims for damage of using untested apps signed with personal cert. I'm sure we will be suprised about the great number of comers. In spite of "hard time explaining that users really find (found) it easier to sign applications for themselves".
Am I naive? Is this contradicts with probable Nokia desire to control all the apps on market thru Ovi Store, to get maximum users personal info, all this "clouds" and so on, and revenues, revenues...? I hope not

[mgroeber9110]

Those free and useful applications could be put into the Ovi Store by their enthusiast developers. It offers the same level of signing what was available via Open Signed Online in the past.

I am beginning to wonder if there is actually a disconnect here between the way users (and freeware developers) look at applications in different regions of the world - could it be that there are perfectly legitimate reasons why Ovi Store is not considered a viable channel for certain types of developers in some markets, which Nokia hasn't really connected to so far, and who have so far used Open Signed Online as their preferred method for valid reasons?

Just speculating wildly, but could this have something to do with, for examples, difficulties of obtaining the necessary legal approvals for a Publisher ID and/or for setting up payments? Or a different "culture" of app installation, where, say, mobile shops putting apps onto peoples' phones for a small fee are an accepted part of the ecosystem?

This is probably not something that we can resolve here in this forum, but as a developer with a mostly Western European outlook on the mobile market, I wonder myself if this "underground" isn't in fact a sign of a market that is structured differently, in a similar way as the US market differers from the European one by the much greater influence of the networks.

I would personally be very interested in reading from people who regularly use Open Signed Online for end-user applications as to why Ovi Publish is not an alternative for them. Understanding this would certainly be an important part of "connecting the next billion".

[wizard_hu_]

While coverage/availability of Ovi Store and its publisher programme may be an issue, most of these threads are disputing policies and demand all capabilities, without mentioning actual accessibility problems. (I do not mention Publisher ID, because a hobbyist freeware developer does not often think about buying a $200/year anything solely for this hobby in my opinion).
Also remember that there are some people who prefer seeing money for their work. Allowing everyone to sign everything results in piracy.
For the pass/no pass thing, an application definitely will not be released in the Ovi Store if the developer does not even try releasing it there.

By the way, about the sanity of users: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_pigs, http://blogs.msdn.com/b/larryosterma...12/438284.aspx
(Though this phenomena has an other reading, users will hack the new system too, Droopyar already mentioned the idea, in a removed post)

[mgroeber9110]

Also remember that there are some people who prefer seeing money for their work. Allowing everyone to sign everything results in piracy.

Of course this brings up the unexplored, unacknowledged link between Symbian Signing and ant-piracy measures again. To my knowledge, this was never part of the official goals of Symbian Signing (with the exception of the DRM capability, which is meant to protect restrictions in media files against the user of the device) but it still seems to be tacitly assumed that tightening signing can help reduce piracy as a side effect.

My personal view is that strong, standardized application DRM has always been one of the missing features of the platform, apart from some hand waving around OMA DRM and Symbian Signing, and how it should be possible in principle...

Of course, I would still say that Symbian Signing succeeded largely in keeping malware a non-issue (on a big scale), and managed to do so even without some of its features properly tightened, such as online certificate revocation. Whether it did so partly by reducing the overall appeal of apps on the platform remains to be judged in hindsight, I suspect.

[droopyar]

@wizard and mgroeber

Nowadays, in all major nokia forums worldwide, blogs and sites, posts are saturated with online tutorials for hacking nokia phones. Videos, tips, and even full firmwares. Really, nokia technicians make nokia a very bad reputation as all customers are trying to hack their phones. Moreover, unlockers are offering service worldwide, and many people start to do it at home.

I think solution is nokia issue a final customer certificate with 17 cap., where each customer could request it locked to his imei.
Piracy has nothing to do with this, as you know if you want piracy, just hack your phone in 4 minutes and thats all. there is a SOLUTION right now. So, why force customers to do it illegaly? Nokia reformulate the obsolete symbiansigned, and add a final customer request feature.

Check internet, any forum shows how to hack your phones!!

[Nokia Ron]

I have to admit I love your argument. If banks just gave out money to everyone that walked into them no one would rob them. With two battery powered tools I can break into any house in less than 4 minutes so people should never lock their doors. The bottom line is that you create a deterence to keep honest people honest.

Ron

@wizard and mgroeber

Nowadays, in all major nokia forums worldwide, blogs and sites, posts are saturated with online tutorials for hacking nokia phones. Videos, tips, and even full firmwares. Really, nokia technicians make nokia a very bad reputation as all customers are trying to hack their phones. Moreover, unlockers are offering service worldwide, and many people start to do it at home.

I think solution is nokia issue a final customer certificate with 17 cap., where each customer could request it locked to his imei.
Piracy has nothing to do with this, as you know if you want piracy, just hack your phone in 4 minutes and thats all. there is a SOLUTION right now. So, why force customers to do it illegaly? Nokia reformulate the obsolete symbiansigned, and add a final customer request feature.

Check internet, any forum shows how to hack your phones!!

[droopyar]

@nokia ron

i think you dont understand my point.

Nowadays, all nokia forums worldwide, top1 post is how to hack ALL nokia phones. People prepare videos, tutorials of tools, etc. And force ALL customers to hack the phone, due to recent changes on symbiansigned.
I dont really understand why nokia company and technicians do not open a customer certificate, where EACH customer request and validates with creditcard or phone number and gives a 17 cert locked to 1 IMEI.

Nokia is forcing ALL customers to hack phones. symbiansign has NOTHING to do with piracy, as if you are a good coder you could prevent it by server side software. What will be the aim of this new change, if ALL customers worldwide hack the phone? Security UID3 for which customer will be?????

Try to understand my point, if you want customers to keep ORIGINAL nokia firmware, just give them their cert and key locked to his IMEI. Otherwise, he will hack the phone by himself or paying 15 USD to any unlocker.

For example: Microsoft was force to release the service packs to also cracked windows, to prevent security risks. In this case, Nokia must release it or ALL phones will be hacked worldwide...... and symbiansigned will be a nice page (with a very bad design)

I know many friends that are changing now to iphone,android or blackberry, as this recent changes are very bad for final customers. Nokia is killing his own business, remember this: if you create problems to customers, you lost business...

Many shops that sell Nokia Phones are offering "hacked firmware from factory" to customers in order not to lose sales....